--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "gwendontoo"
wrote:



>
> you we


That doesn't make a whole lot of cents!

Don

gwendontoo wrote:
> I think before everyone starts beating their chests on this topic you
> we might take some time and get more information. Obviously no one
> likes to have their boxes and clues taken over, but from the little
> bit that I'm aware of, the only way this might happen is if a
> letterboxer goes out of letterboxing for a while and can not be
> reached. This may or may not be the case. Hopefully a more complete
> explanation will be forth coming. Maybe a webmaster could jump in on
> this one for their perspective?
>
> Don
>
>

At least someone around here has some sense to at the very least wait
and see what the whole story is.

I don't know the whole story on Kim's end, but I can at least enlighten
you as to the story on Rick's end.

" When I adopted the Martian Maggot boxes (I should have my head
examined) I followed the following procedure:

1) Sent mail to her many times over months with no response. I
believe she moved to Canada in 2003.

2) Contacted Choi with a list of boxes in NJ and PA, who contacted
her at another e-mail address he had for her.

3) Recontacted Choi later to see if he had heard from her. He changed
her LBNA clues to have my name on them. In some ways this is
hijacking because we never got explicit permission. She just doesn't
care anymore. She never responded to any more of my inquiries as to
box locations, hints on exactly where they might be hidden so that
they could be maintained, or permission to access the clues on her
letterboxing website. So I am still in the process of searching for
the boxes and replacing/repairing them.

4) I maintain the boxes staying true to her original intent. Because
Martian Maggot also designed a special web page for most of her
clues, I have kept the clue pointing to her site. Where the clues are
wrong or out of date, I add only enough information to the LBNA page
to correct the error but not change the original clue."

Evidentially she does care, but no one could get a hold of her to find
out one way or another. Maybe a change in address, just being out of
the loop for a time, whatever, there was a lack of communication here
and not on Rick's part.

Rick is a good guy. He means no malice and in my not so humble opinion,
he did the right thing. He spent a lot of time finding and refurbishing
her boxes. He cared about her boxes more then his own, and never took
credit for the boxes as his own.

As usual too many of you have jumped the gun before you had all of the
information.

I understand why Kim is mad, what I do not understand is why she did not
first contact Rick about this, or Choi, and instead decided to pull her
clues and complain here.


--
Nathan Brown

AKA Cyclonic
Penncoasters.com

The Insensitivity rolls on...

Real men don't do virtual letterboxes.

Yes, I agree with this "Rick"........he should have had his head examined. I
won't intensively flame the guy, because that would involve far too many
expletive deleteds.

Letterboxes are artwork. Artwork that belogs to the artist. Period. I'll
say it again:

ARTWORK THAT BELONGS TO THE ARTIST.

If the boxes were adopted with her permission, fine. All's well with the
world. No problem. But just because she can't be reached, the only
possible ethical solution that I see any webmaster having any right to do is
to remove the clues from the website. Then, when the artist contacts them
to find out why, a new email addy can be established if the webmaster
decides a current email addy is a must in order to have a box or boxes
listed. I could even marginally understand if a webmaster wanted to put a
note at the top of the clues stating that attempts had been made
unsucessfully to contact the placer, so searchers search knowing that ahead
of time and can search "at their own risk". But allowing someone else
access to those clues? Never ever.

Absolutely none of the points that Rick argues that he went thru in order to
take over her boxes matters one iota. The one and only thing that matters
is that he did not have her permission. There was no jumping the gun, as
you say, before people had all the information, because all the information
needed was right there in her post. There appears to be no argument on the
fact that permission from the artist was never received. That *is* the
"whole story."

Why should the artist contact Choi or Rick? Rick was the one who stole her
boxes and Choi was the one who allowed it to happen. I'm very glad it was
posted here so that other artists are aware of what happened.

~~ Mosey ~~





-----Original Message-----
From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Nathan Brown
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 11:28 PM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Martianmaggot box clues ATT LbNA WEB GURUS



At least someone around here has some sense to at the very least wait
and see what the whole story is.

I don't know the whole story on Kim's end, but I can at least enlighten
you as to the story on Rick's end.

" When I adopted the Martian Maggot boxes (I should have my head
examined) I followed the following procedure:

1) Sent mail to her many times over months with no response. I
believe she moved to Canada in 2003.

2) Contacted Choi with a list of boxes in NJ and PA, who contacted
her at another e-mail address he had for her.

3) Recontacted Choi later to see if he had heard from her. He changed
her LBNA clues to have my name on them. In some ways this is
hijacking because we never got explicit permission. She just doesn't
care anymore. She never responded to any more of my inquiries as to
box locations, hints on exactly where they might be hidden so that
they could be maintained, or permission to access the clues on her
letterboxing website. So I am still in the process of searching for
the boxes and replacing/repairing them.

4) I maintain the boxes staying true to her original intent. Because
Martian Maggot also designed a special web page for most of her
clues, I have kept the clue pointing to her site. Where the clues are
wrong or out of date, I add only enough information to the LBNA page
to correct the error but not change the original clue."

Evidentially she does care, but no one could get a hold of her to find
out one way or another. Maybe a change in address, just being out of
the loop for a time, whatever, there was a lack of communication here
and not on Rick's part.

Rick is a good guy. He means no malice and in my not so humble opinion,
he did the right thing. He spent a lot of time finding and refurbishing
her boxes. He cared about her boxes more then his own, and never took
credit for the boxes as his own.

As usual too many of you have jumped the gun before you had all of the
information.

I understand why Kim is mad, what I do not understand is why she did not
first contact Rick about this, or Choi, and instead decided to pull her
clues and complain here.


--
Nathan Brown

AKA Cyclonic
Penncoasters.com

The Insensitivity rolls on...

Real men don't do virtual letterboxes.




Yahoo! Groups Links

At 06:26 AM 5/15/2007, you wrote:
>Letterboxes are artwork. Artwork that belogs to the artist. Period.

But a letterbox that is abandoned is just trash in the woods. When a
box is adopted it's saved from becoming trash.

SD



#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#
Silent Doug, P83 F1674 X220 E43
http://www.letterboxing.info
Get a Clue - Go Letterboxing!

Also over the years people change services and there e-mail changes ! Maybe before they adopt a box they should post that they are looking for (so and so) planter in the lbna and atlas quest sites.If then there are no response ,try to find someone who boxes with them .But maybe there is a new definition topic. If you adopt you must leave clues as they are written .
Wildcats

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Silent Doug
At 06:26 AM 5/15/2007, you wrote:
>Letterboxes are artwork. Artwork that belogs to the artist. Period.

But a letterbox that is abandoned is just trash in the woods. When a
box is adopted it's saved from becoming trash.

SD

#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#
Silent Doug, P83 F1674 X220 E43
http://www.letterboxing.info
Get a Clue - Go Letterboxing!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dearest Nathan et al,

Please read the posts again, no one jumped the gun. No one mentioned
Rick in Boca until Jersytrailblazer mentioned him explaining that he
wasn't privy to all the information but stated that he was aware,
through his correspondence with Rick in Boca, that he was trying to be
helpful. Please don't turn this in to a flame as her Ladyship feels
there is an important point in all this that should be debated.

When is a box abandoned and when does it become litter? Should there
be a rule about what is abandoned? How else would we decide when
enough time is enough. What would constitute abandonment, the last
time anyone heard from the placer, the last time someone found the
box, or merely the fact that a box is damaged in some way and the
placer hasn't checked on it quickly enough to find the damage before
someone else? It seems like that it would become a very slippery slope
to try to make a rule that imposes an expiration date on a box. It is
very likely that all letterboxers wouldn't read or accept a rule and
people inevitably will misinterpret it and next thing you know people
are 'benevolently' adopting boxes everywhere. One mustn't forget
Samuel Johnson's maxim that "Hell is paved with good intentions."

It seems an inviolate truism that another persons art work is their
own and should never be tampered with in any way but this runs the
risk of abandoned letterboxes strewn all over Connecticut and the rest
of the country becoming more and more to be viewed as litter and
giving letterboxing a bad name. We all know that letterboxes are
abandoned and one does not want to see litter filling up parks and
public lands so what does one do? How does one know when enough time
passed is enough?

Certainly Rick in Boca made an attempt to find the placer, a search of
the archives will bring up this string if anyone bothers to check but
we now have an angry owner. It seems there is a responsibility for a
placer to monitor their boxes in some way otherwise their abandonment
turns their letterbox from art to litter and her Ladyship finds litter
unacceptable. However, one wouldn't want others to determine when a
box has been abandoned because there will assuredly be disagreements
about where this line should be drawn.

What then should the answer be? In her Ladyship's pompous, elitist,
self-righteous, arrogant, nasty, egotistical, mean opinion the onus
should be on the placer and that, tempting though it may be to plant
while on vacation or leave boxes behind when one moves, a placer
should be responsible to find a foster parent for their box if it is
in an area in which they cannot quickly reach the box for maintenance.
This is the only way to retain control over one's special creation but
it also imposes a responsibility to maintain ones boxes and once
again, not all will read or follow this rule. Is there a reasonable
solution here?

Quizzically,
LP
Certainly Rick in Boca made an attempt to find the placer, a search of
the archives will bring up this string if anyone bothers to check but
we now have an angry owner. It seems there is a responsibility for a
placer to monitor their boxes in some way otherwise their abandonment
turns their letterbox from art to litter and her Ladyship finds litter
unacceptable. However, one wouldn't want others to determine when a
box has been abandoned because there will assuredly be disagreements
about where this line should be drawn.

What then should the answer be? In her Ladyships pompous, elitist,
self-righteous, arrogant, nasty, egoptistical, mean opinion the onnus
should be on the placer and that tempting though it may be to plant
while on vacation or leave boxes behind when one moves that a placer
is responsible to find a foster parent for their box if it is in an
area in which they cannot quickly reach the box for maintaince.

oops, cut and paste error there at the end, that wasn't a post script.

OK, I admit that I did not read the entire post, but I agree that the
question, "When is a box abandoned and when does it become
litter?" does need to be addressed.

When I see that people plant boxes all over the states/world
(including cruise ships), I wonder...and how are those boxes to be
maintained? Not that it is my business to know the answer to my
wonderings...I just wonder, that's all.

~Perdu


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Hydrangea Prisspott nee
Hedge" wrote:
>
> Dearest Nathan et al,
>
> Please read the posts again, no one jumped the gun. No one mentioned
> Rick in Boca until Jersytrailblazer mentioned him explaining that he
> wasn't privy to all the information but stated that he was aware,
> through his correspondence with Rick in Boca, that he was trying to
be
> helpful. Please don't turn this in to a flame as her Ladyship feels
> there is an important point in all this that should be debated.
>
> When is a box abandoned and when does it become litter? Should there
> be a rule about what is abandoned? How else would we decide when
> enough time is enough. What would constitute abandonment, the last
> time anyone heard from the placer, the last time someone found the
> box, or merely the fact that a box is damaged in some way and the
> placer hasn't checked on it quickly enough to find the damage before
> someone else? It seems like that it would become a very slippery
slope
> to try to make a rule that imposes an expiration date on a box. It
is
> very likely that all letterboxers wouldn't read or accept a rule and
> people inevitably will misinterpret it and next thing you know
people
> are 'benevolently' adopting boxes everywhere. One mustn't forget
> Samuel Johnson's maxim that "Hell is paved with good intentions."
>
> It seems an inviolate truism that another persons art work is their
> own and should never be tampered with in any way but this runs the
> risk of abandoned letterboxes strewn all over Connecticut and the
rest
> of the country becoming more and more to be viewed as litter and
> giving letterboxing a bad name. We all know that letterboxes are
> abandoned and one does not want to see litter filling up parks and
> public lands so what does one do? How does one know when enough time
> passed is enough?
>
> Certainly Rick in Boca made an attempt to find the placer, a search
of
> the archives will bring up this string if anyone bothers to check
but
> we now have an angry owner. It seems there is a responsibility for a
> placer to monitor their boxes in some way otherwise their
abandonment
> turns their letterbox from art to litter and her Ladyship finds
litter
> unacceptable. However, one wouldn't want others to determine when a
> box has been abandoned because there will assuredly be disagreements
> about where this line should be drawn.
>
> What then should the answer be? In her Ladyship's pompous, elitist,
> self-righteous, arrogant, nasty, egotistical, mean opinion the onus
> should be on the placer and that, tempting though it may be to plant
> while on vacation or leave boxes behind when one moves, a placer
> should be responsible to find a foster parent for their box if it is
> in an area in which they cannot quickly reach the box for
maintenance.
> This is the only way to retain control over one's special creation
but
> it also imposes a responsibility to maintain ones boxes and once
> again, not all will read or follow this rule. Is there a reasonable
> solution here?
>
> Quizzically,
> LP
> Certainly Rick in Boca made an attempt to find the placer, a search
of
> the archives will bring up this string if anyone bothers to check
but
> we now have an angry owner. It seems there is a responsibility for a
> placer to monitor their boxes in some way otherwise their
abandonment
> turns their letterbox from art to litter and her Ladyship finds
litter
> unacceptable. However, one wouldn't want others to determine when a
> box has been abandoned because there will assuredly be disagreements
> about where this line should be drawn.
>
> What then should the answer be? In her Ladyships pompous, elitist,
> self-righteous, arrogant, nasty, egoptistical, mean opinion the
onnus
> should be on the placer and that tempting though it may be to plant
> while on vacation or leave boxes behind when one moves that a placer
> is responsible to find a foster parent for their box if it is in an
> area in which they cannot quickly reach the box for maintaince.
>

Oh thank goodness! I was very concerned you had fallen off your sequined wagon and had gotten into the cooking sherry again! (hic!)

Lady Hydrangea Prisspott nee Hedge wrote: oops, cut and paste error there at the end, that wasn't a post script.






---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My dear Irene, her ladyship propbably would not stoop to imbibing
mere cooking sherry. Now, some properly aged Oloroso or Palo Cortado
would be perhaps more to her ladyship's liking.

;-)

LB

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Hikers and Hounds
wrote:
>
> Oh thank goodness! I was very concerned you had fallen off your
sequined wagon and had gotten into the cooking sherry again! (hic!)
>
> Lady Hydrangea Prisspott nee Hedge
wrote: oops, cut and paste error there at the end, that
wasn't a post script.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket:
mail, news, photos & more.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

While I have no solution for the immediate problem, I do have "my"
answer for the questions raised.

Charge for having a letterbox clue listed for a definate time period.
(3yrs?)
Make it a very low nominal fee, ala Dartmoor Catalogs.
Once it is not renewed it will be off line. This will reduce abandoned
letterboxes being listed whether they are still viable or not and help
fund LbNA.

How many times have we heard that folks are searching for boxes but
they are missing, whine, whine ,whine. This would also be an answer for
those missing.

Don
>
> When is a box abandoned and when does it become litter? Should there
> be a rule about what is abandoned? How else would we decide when
> enough time is enough. What would constitute abandonment, the last
> time anyone heard from the placer, the last time someone found the
> box, or merely the fact that a box is damaged in some way and the
> placer hasn't checked on it quickly enough to find the damage before
> someone else? It seems like that it would become a very slippery slope
> to try to make a rule that imposes an expiration date on a box.

I have adopted but I couldn't leave the clues as written. The original placer put the box under a decidous tree in a busy municipal park next to the bandstand. In the Fall, once the leaves fell off, the box was completely exposed and consequently taken. Another box in that spot would have faced the same ending. After a number of attempts by letterboxers to contact the owner (letterboxers were contacting me to ask if I knew if it was really gone and telling me that the owner wasn't responding), I contacted LBNA and got permission to adopt the box. I assumed that the original intent of the placer was to bring people to the park and bandstand so I found a better spot nearby with a view of the structure. I had an image of the original stamp in my logbook so I re-carved the stamp for the new letterbox. Do people think this was the wrong thing to do? I haven't received any negative feedback from letterboxers who have found the replacement box.

Lone R

alice.stone@comcast.net wrote:
Also over the years people change services and there e-mail changes ! Maybe before they adopt a box they should post that they are looking for (so and so) planter in the lbna and atlas quest sites.If then there are no response ,try to find someone who boxes with them .But maybe there is a new definition topic. If you adopt you must leave clues as they are written .
Wildcats

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Silent Doug
At 06:26 AM 5/15/2007, you wrote:
>Letterboxes are artwork. Artwork that belogs to the artist. Period.

But a letterbox that is abandoned is just trash in the woods. When a
box is adopted it's saved from becoming trash.

SD

#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#
Silent Doug, P83 F1674 X220 E43
http://www.letterboxing.info
Get a Clue - Go Letterboxing!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "gwendontoo"
wrote:

> Charge for having a letterbox clue listed for a definate time
> period. (3yrs?)
> Make it a very low nominal fee, ala Dartmoor Catalogs.

Now you're talking. If we (pardon the phrase in light of recent talk)
"adopted" this approach I believe many of our current issues might be
resolved. There's a reason that 1) boxes have lasted for greater
lengths of time in Dartmoor and 2) the hobby is more socially accepted
and has a great history of mystery and lore associated with it.


> Once it is not renewed it will be off line. This will reduce
> abandoned letterboxes being listed whether they are still viable or
>> not and help fund LbNA.

Ah~ hear ye hear ye~ The answer to what may be the most longstanding
issue with Americanized boxing. The clue distribution method has
resulted in a haphazard assortment of online clues. The increasing
demand for clues coupled with the increasing quantity of clues to be
listed has created a rather perplexing dilemma for both webmasters and
clue owners alike. How to fund the ongoing project, and how to create
oversight of the massive amount of boxes. Who is held liable and how
on earth can we verify whether a box is present or not? Unlike smaller
models such as the Valley Quest program that has an established track
record of "box monitors" and (the much larger) Dartmoor model which
has produced published catalogs which ensure that the box is
maintained and alive, the webpage has just become a free-for-all.


> How many times have we heard that folks are searching for boxes but
> they are missing, whine, whine ,whine. This would also be an answer
> for those missing.
> Don

Despite the appeal of a catalog, there are still not concrete
assurances that the box is present. What it does provide however is a
more established means of clue dissemination as well as a quality
control of sorts. It may not be the answer to those that whine about
things being missing because boxes can always go missing in the
meantime, but it places more responsibility on the shoulders of those
that create and publish the clues as it out to be.

Great points Don~
phyto

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Lightnin Bug" wrote:
>
> My dear Irene, her ladyship propbably would not stoop to imbibing
> mere cooking sherry. Now, some properly aged Oloroso or Palo Cortado
> would be perhaps more to her ladyship's liking.
>

Dearest Darling Lightnin,

Are you inviting her Ladyship over for a sherry, you handsome roue you?

(Bartleby, bring the car around!)

The hedge sisters are always welcome for a return visit in this
here 'boxin' backwater! We just recently got the roads paved around
yonder.

LB

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Hydrangea Prisspott nee
Hedge" wrote:
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Lightnin Bug"
wrote:
> >
> > My dear Irene, her ladyship propbably would not stoop to imbibing
> > mere cooking sherry. Now, some properly aged Oloroso or Palo
Cortado
> > would be perhaps more to her ladyship's liking.
> >
>
> Dearest Darling Lightnin,
>
> Are you inviting her Ladyship over for a sherry, you handsome roue
you?
>
> (Bartleby, bring the car around!)
>